Post by slidershal on Jun 13, 2004 15:45:53 GMT -5
I've been having a great discussion over on the PureMX boards that I would like to share with all of you here:
Pure Memeber(PM):Most dissapointing were Brennan and Shalimar. Both were smart characters in S1 who got completely under-written in S2. I was really shocked to see Shalimar in the 3 epis of S3 which I have seen. She isnt the Shalimar of S1, not even of S2. Looked like she isnt a Feral at all. Just a weak woman who either cries to see Adam or worries for Brennan..
Slidershal(S):So just because Shal is supposed to be a hard-ass feral, she can't show emotion? She can't cry when she sees Adam, whom she thought was dead? She can't worry about Brennan, whom she cares about? S1 Shal was cool but she didn't have much depth. She was just the tough girl. The emotion put into her later made her better. The fact that she feels strongly, or cries, makes her human, NOT WEAK.
PM:I agree with this totally. Shal's character didn't have a lot of depth before. It was all about being a hard @$$ and protecting her territory. Then it was all about taking care of her problems with Ashlocke. She has a lot more emotions now and her character has evolved quite a bit as well over the years. I'm proud of who she's become. I actually feel like I got to know who she was now...not who she wanted to make us think she was.
S:Instead of seeing only Shal's tough exterior we got to know Shal the person. To me she didn't change really, there was just more to her. I only wish that the writers would have tested the character more, to give her some real growth. They were on to something when they had her face her father, who was basically responsible for allowing her to be abused in an asylum, and also when she had her moment of doubt about the direction of her life in 'A Normal Life'. And then they didn't carry over any of those things afterwards! *bangs head on desk* My #1 pet peeve about the show. No follow-through. Impulse I have to agree with what you said about her powers. All that's really left now is the feral eyes...and uh, they still glow orange.
PM:I am not saying that she shouldn't show emotions. She should, infact she did, in "Fool for Love", i liked her in this episode, because there was a reason for her pain. But she is supposed to be different from normal women her age because she is tougher than them. By that, I am not saying she should become cold, but she should be more controlled over her emotions and should know when to show them.
S:She is supposed to be tougher, physically. No one has ever said that being a feral makes you emotionally tougher. In fact it could be the opposite. If feral behavior is predicated by the animal side, then Shal's strong reactions, whatever emotion that may be, aren't out of place at all. Nor is her attatchment to Brennan. For her it is all about impulse and instinct. Controling her emotions is not easy and may not ever be. Leave us not forget either that there is an inherent weakness in Shalimar due to the abuse she suffered as a child. It is something that the character has yet to deal with.
All I ever saw Shalimar do in season one, with the exception of 'Fool For Love', was be tough. There wasn't depth or meaning. She went around kicking ass and that was pretty much it. I thought she was horribly underwritten then. I thought the S2 finale, "Lest He Become" was one of the best moments for that character, if not the best over all. Season 3 was only bad in that the character was never really challenged. They just didn't do much with her. But I don't think she was any different from S2.
PM: During season one at least at the beginning I saw Shalimar as a mentor and mother like figure with in Sanctuary. She made mistakes and was one of the kids, but she helped Emma develop her powers and herself confidence throughout the season.
PM:she wasn't always tough ... she was protective of Jesse especially in Shock of the New and immediately felt love for Emma as soon as she joined.
S: Okay, I'll concede that. You're both right.
I still think the scope for Shalimar was very narrow compared to later.
What did upset me, and it still does, is that they always seemed to be on the verge of doing something great with the character and then never followed it through. I think maybe the perception of S2/S3 Shalimar wouldn't be such a bad one if the follow-through had been there.
PM:I feel that the progression of her powers in Reality Check was poorly explored. She was HUNTING like a feline would. We see at the end of the ep, that she goes out to do it again even though Brennan doesn't want her to. Yet, we never see or hear about her doing that again. I was very disappointed with that one.
S:That was the one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, disappointments for me with Shalimar. They set us up for something really cool there, like maybe Shal's feralness was starting to spin out of control. And wouldn't that have been fun to explore? Sure, but did we? NO.
PM:she has developed into a complete stubborn person at one time and then entirely vulnerable at others, I mean there is no balance and consistency at all.
S:But isn't that type of wildly varying behavior inherent to a feral? They're wild and unpredictable, not always balanced and consistant. The core of Shalimar never changed, but I think as she has evolved and stress has been put on her, her reactions have gotten stronger. Her control of her impulses is imperfect - dealing with that as a topic in an episode would likely make it seem less incongruous.
PM:in season two, it seemed that she had lost all that motherly-type love for Emma and Jesse and focused more on Brennan ... and in the beginning of season 2, started acting stubborn towards Adam's decision to help Ashlocke (the reasoning is not the point) and always attacked him. Sure, I hated Ashlocke as much as anybody, but the Season 1/Shalimar would always trust Adam's judgment.
S:In season two Emma wasn't the new girl anymore. She had more strength and could stand on her own two feet. I think that because Shalimar recognized that, she didn't need to be mothering to Emma anymore.
Also as far as Ashlocke is concerned, the reasoning is very important. Ashlocke was abusing Shalimar. How is she supposed to feel when Adam won't take him out so that her pain can stop? I don't think it was an issue of trust - I think it was Shalimar lashing out at Adam because she was hurting. Blind trust has never been a quality that I saw in Shalimar, and I think it is unreasonable to think that there would never be a time when Shal and Adam's point of view didn't line up.
PM:The problem is not with the characters themselves but the way they are written or rather ruined by the writers. There is no sign of consistency to any character. For example, as discussed in the above posts, Shalimar is shown to have evloved in "Reality Check" but that new instinct or power of her to hunt in the night was never brought up again.
S:I think maybe that's what I've been trying to get at all this time. To me the core of Shalimar is the same, and that is the part that I love, and that is the part of her that I felt got better as time went on.
I still do think that the wild shifts in certain behaviors could be attributed to her feral side, though some of the inconsistancies are a bit of a stretch.
I'll make updates to this thread as the conversation progresses
Pure Memeber(PM):Most dissapointing were Brennan and Shalimar. Both were smart characters in S1 who got completely under-written in S2. I was really shocked to see Shalimar in the 3 epis of S3 which I have seen. She isnt the Shalimar of S1, not even of S2. Looked like she isnt a Feral at all. Just a weak woman who either cries to see Adam or worries for Brennan..
Slidershal(S):So just because Shal is supposed to be a hard-ass feral, she can't show emotion? She can't cry when she sees Adam, whom she thought was dead? She can't worry about Brennan, whom she cares about? S1 Shal was cool but she didn't have much depth. She was just the tough girl. The emotion put into her later made her better. The fact that she feels strongly, or cries, makes her human, NOT WEAK.
PM:I agree with this totally. Shal's character didn't have a lot of depth before. It was all about being a hard @$$ and protecting her territory. Then it was all about taking care of her problems with Ashlocke. She has a lot more emotions now and her character has evolved quite a bit as well over the years. I'm proud of who she's become. I actually feel like I got to know who she was now...not who she wanted to make us think she was.
S:Instead of seeing only Shal's tough exterior we got to know Shal the person. To me she didn't change really, there was just more to her. I only wish that the writers would have tested the character more, to give her some real growth. They were on to something when they had her face her father, who was basically responsible for allowing her to be abused in an asylum, and also when she had her moment of doubt about the direction of her life in 'A Normal Life'. And then they didn't carry over any of those things afterwards! *bangs head on desk* My #1 pet peeve about the show. No follow-through. Impulse I have to agree with what you said about her powers. All that's really left now is the feral eyes...and uh, they still glow orange.
PM:I am not saying that she shouldn't show emotions. She should, infact she did, in "Fool for Love", i liked her in this episode, because there was a reason for her pain. But she is supposed to be different from normal women her age because she is tougher than them. By that, I am not saying she should become cold, but she should be more controlled over her emotions and should know when to show them.
S:She is supposed to be tougher, physically. No one has ever said that being a feral makes you emotionally tougher. In fact it could be the opposite. If feral behavior is predicated by the animal side, then Shal's strong reactions, whatever emotion that may be, aren't out of place at all. Nor is her attatchment to Brennan. For her it is all about impulse and instinct. Controling her emotions is not easy and may not ever be. Leave us not forget either that there is an inherent weakness in Shalimar due to the abuse she suffered as a child. It is something that the character has yet to deal with.
All I ever saw Shalimar do in season one, with the exception of 'Fool For Love', was be tough. There wasn't depth or meaning. She went around kicking ass and that was pretty much it. I thought she was horribly underwritten then. I thought the S2 finale, "Lest He Become" was one of the best moments for that character, if not the best over all. Season 3 was only bad in that the character was never really challenged. They just didn't do much with her. But I don't think she was any different from S2.
PM: During season one at least at the beginning I saw Shalimar as a mentor and mother like figure with in Sanctuary. She made mistakes and was one of the kids, but she helped Emma develop her powers and herself confidence throughout the season.
PM:she wasn't always tough ... she was protective of Jesse especially in Shock of the New and immediately felt love for Emma as soon as she joined.
S: Okay, I'll concede that. You're both right.
I still think the scope for Shalimar was very narrow compared to later.
What did upset me, and it still does, is that they always seemed to be on the verge of doing something great with the character and then never followed it through. I think maybe the perception of S2/S3 Shalimar wouldn't be such a bad one if the follow-through had been there.
PM:I feel that the progression of her powers in Reality Check was poorly explored. She was HUNTING like a feline would. We see at the end of the ep, that she goes out to do it again even though Brennan doesn't want her to. Yet, we never see or hear about her doing that again. I was very disappointed with that one.
S:That was the one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, disappointments for me with Shalimar. They set us up for something really cool there, like maybe Shal's feralness was starting to spin out of control. And wouldn't that have been fun to explore? Sure, but did we? NO.
PM:she has developed into a complete stubborn person at one time and then entirely vulnerable at others, I mean there is no balance and consistency at all.
S:But isn't that type of wildly varying behavior inherent to a feral? They're wild and unpredictable, not always balanced and consistant. The core of Shalimar never changed, but I think as she has evolved and stress has been put on her, her reactions have gotten stronger. Her control of her impulses is imperfect - dealing with that as a topic in an episode would likely make it seem less incongruous.
PM:in season two, it seemed that she had lost all that motherly-type love for Emma and Jesse and focused more on Brennan ... and in the beginning of season 2, started acting stubborn towards Adam's decision to help Ashlocke (the reasoning is not the point) and always attacked him. Sure, I hated Ashlocke as much as anybody, but the Season 1/Shalimar would always trust Adam's judgment.
S:In season two Emma wasn't the new girl anymore. She had more strength and could stand on her own two feet. I think that because Shalimar recognized that, she didn't need to be mothering to Emma anymore.
Also as far as Ashlocke is concerned, the reasoning is very important. Ashlocke was abusing Shalimar. How is she supposed to feel when Adam won't take him out so that her pain can stop? I don't think it was an issue of trust - I think it was Shalimar lashing out at Adam because she was hurting. Blind trust has never been a quality that I saw in Shalimar, and I think it is unreasonable to think that there would never be a time when Shal and Adam's point of view didn't line up.
PM:The problem is not with the characters themselves but the way they are written or rather ruined by the writers. There is no sign of consistency to any character. For example, as discussed in the above posts, Shalimar is shown to have evloved in "Reality Check" but that new instinct or power of her to hunt in the night was never brought up again.
S:I think maybe that's what I've been trying to get at all this time. To me the core of Shalimar is the same, and that is the part that I love, and that is the part of her that I felt got better as time went on.
I still do think that the wild shifts in certain behaviors could be attributed to her feral side, though some of the inconsistancies are a bit of a stretch.
I'll make updates to this thread as the conversation progresses
